Blending perma death with 'death means a jog'...

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Callan S.
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Blending perma death with 'death means a jog'...

Post by Callan S. »

Just an idea I had - you know how when your playing nethack and you have a nice guy going with gear and THWACK, he dies and it's bad, but it's good in that this is what gives the game kick?

I was thinking what if you mixed the traditional browser model of 'you never die' along with this, in that you have two characters - your main, and another guy who is capable of dying, but the further he gets, the more resources your main gets (you play your main as well, of course). This way it hurts when he dies, but it's not like playing a browser game where you can actually die.

Also, permutating the idea, the guy could get forceably retired with wounds rather than die - this way your main character sort of has a history of NPC's he's known. Adds a certain roleplay element, perhaps? Or mix it up - 9 out of 10 times they retire to wounds, sometimes they die. So you know some, and others you only see at the graveyard...

Just an idea to blend the two worlds... :)
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hallsofvallhalla
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Re: Blending perma death with 'death means a jog'...

Post by hallsofvallhalla »

i like the idea of a history with the game. One thing always missed is a lore to the game created by the players. Players being apart of the history.
Zyviel
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Re: Blending perma death with 'death means a jog'...

Post by Zyviel »

My game is not a rpg but more of a strategy game, but I have perma death for all units except the player's avatar. Also, while the player's avatar can be resurrected, the avatar does lose all the equipment he was wearing when he died so that is pretty costly.
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Jackolantern
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Re: Blending perma death with 'death means a jog'...

Post by Jackolantern »

Sounds pretty interesting, but honestly, I only like harsh death penalties if the design truly calls for it, such as in a zombie survival-horror/RPG hybrid game, in which case it would add fear and tension. If fear, tension and possible frustration do not add to the design, I say leave it out. I think we as designers have had a lot more interest over the years in perma-death and its relatives than players have. Its not really a feature you hear players clamoring for, the way you hear them asking for more dynamic worlds and meaningful quest systems.
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Zyviel
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Re: Blending perma death with 'death means a jog'...

Post by Zyviel »

Halls,

You mentioned players being a part of the history and lore of a game. What kind of ideas do you have for allowing players to leave their mark on a game? I assume it would have to be a one of a kind type scenario that wouldn't be duplicated over and over by other players.

Jackolantern,

Since my game is a strategy game it is pretty normal for strategy games to have perma death for the military units you are controlling. Also the loss of equipment on death means that players will always have a need to spend resources on crafting new equipment.
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Jackolantern
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Re: Blending perma death with 'death means a jog'...

Post by Jackolantern »

Yes, perma-death in a strategy game is very different than in an MMORPG.
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Callan S.
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Re: Blending perma death with 'death means a jog'...

Post by Callan S. »

Jack, in a game where say if you beat the monsters they just get hurt and run off back to their lairs without their treasure then totally I agree with players only ever getting hurt and running off back to town without some of their treasure.

To me the setting calls for it if you can kill the enemy - because it just seems kinda BS to me that you can kill them, but they can't kill you. Really to me, in such a situation, the ones who can't die are more like actual bad guys. To me the parity of both sides being able to kill each other gives some legitimacy to one side thinking of themselves as good.

I know alot of people are used to 'I can kill them, they can only inconvenience me' design - but to me that's not a reason to design that way, it's just feeding a habit they have formed. I could support it, but I choose not to (to my short term detriment no doubt, in terms of player numbers, but to my short and long term benefit of building a game based on what I care about)

I'm playing that kingdoms game at the moment and I find the characters dying (which kind of makes the party as an entityt die as well) adding real grit and a sense of real contact with the world, for me.

I'll grant when I've played fallout3, I haven't exactly let a character die when they died, I've reloaded. Maybe I should have that - there's a subtle element of psychology in the reload, because it's the player deciding 'I want to keep going'. Where if the game reloads you, it's the game deciding for the player, which is entirely different as sometimes, as a player, you might want to decide that's it for that character. Note: Reloading doesn't have to be the whole world, just reloading the characters prior state.

anyway, long post...!
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Jackolantern
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Re: Blending perma death with 'death means a jog'...

Post by Jackolantern »

Whether or not it is more realistic, or it makes more sense, perma-death in any form in an MMO is a hardcore mechanic that will scare off a lot of players. I personally will not play any kind of perma-death game because I don't want to permanently lose what I have worked for and I know I will never start over. Then again, some players proudly play perma-death games/servers, such as the small but loyal community on Diablo II's "Hardcore Servers". But regardless it can be a major source of frustration to players that cause them to quit when/if they experience it, and it all but eliminates casual players, which are the majority of all game players. It also strongly fosters competition if players can attack each other, since it creates a dog-eat-dog world where griefing takes on new meaning, and strength is the form of stability.

In my opinion, perma-death in any form should not be added simply because it makes sense once you consider that you can kill enemies. I would only add it if it positively adds to the design, which is the basis for all game design decisions.
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Callan S.
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Re: Blending perma death with 'death means a jog'...

Post by Callan S. »

I don't think you've gotten the design? It's split in two - your character, who can't die and a sort of side kick who can. In wow you permanently lose stuff all the time - when you die, you lose X amount of gold. Well, actually you lose (10%?) durability, but you have to pay for that so no dif. Losing the side kick is similar - actually, it's gentler, as the side kick is a source of income, so you don't lose any cash/have to pay for anything if he dies. You just miss out on stuff he can grant you.

Other than that clarification, it does add in a positive sense. Just perhaps not in everyone elses sense of possitive. But as said, I wouldn't know why, apparently 11 million people are okay with permanently losing gold to occasional 'deaths'. Does perma gold loss in wow just not seem as obvious a perma loss of what you have worked for?
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Jackolantern
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Re: Blending perma death with 'death means a jog'...

Post by Jackolantern »

Ahhh, ok. I was a bit unclear on the original idea. Pretty interesting, and as long as there is no way to lose the progress of your main, then that would not really be a hardcore mechanic. However, you may not really get the pro's of perma-death either, which is mostly about adding tension, competition and immersion. I guess it depends on how deep you go in presenting these side-kicks. If they are closer to a Guild Wars henchmen, players won't care about them. If they are closer to being another players the user plays with, where they have their own story, own advancement, own belongings and you only play with 1 or 2 over the course of your play life time, players will feel more attached to them and will fight harder to keep from losing them.
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