Game mechanics

[Xaleph]

Anyone here who`s got some nice formula`s in regard to PvP?

I was thinking something like:

// hard coded for example
p1.level = 10;
p1.weaponStat1 = 10; // min dmg
p1.weaponStat2 = 24; // max dmg

// hard coded for example
p2.level = 9;
p2.defense = 20;

dmg = ( ( p1.level * 0.2 ) + ( rand ( p1.weaponStat1, p1.weaponStat2 ) * 1.1 ) ) - (( ( p2.level * 0.2 ) + ( p2.defense * 0.2 ) * 1 ) ;

dmg = ( ( 10 * 0.2 ) + ( rand( 14) * 1.1 ) - ( ( ( 8 * 0.2 ) + ( 40 * 0.2 ) ) * 1 );
meaning : dmg = 11.8

Where the 1.1 is the modular expansion for stuff like added bonuses or hexes, so it could be 0.4 in case of blindness or 0.8 in case of crippling effects.
If the p2 has an added bonus, in this case, it hasn`t, but if it had, it could be 1.6 for extra armor potions or whatever.

Anyway, what i`m trying to say is, i`m in the dark when it comes to formulas. This is just a basic one whereas there`s many more to come. So any pointers in the right direction anyone? Thanks in advance!

Kind regards, Xaleph

[Callan S.]

I think it's the stakes of PVP that are important to look at first.

Like if you can only battle three times per real life day, then failing a battle means really missing out.

Or if you have some game money that you can lose, the more money, the higher the stakes.


Trying to just get every little weapon stated up and every little action done is, just by itself, a simulationist exercise - not about PVP at all but about simulating a world till it almost seems tangible. Either simulation or play to win is fine, but they don't go together as they screw each other up, ruining each others fun.

I'd look more at say a player gets a few dollars of game cash each day for free, but can fight others to gather more - and when they have more cash, they can lay bigger bets in fights which will earn them even more game cash.

[Xaleph]

I understand what you are saying, but there still needs to be a mechanism to get things to work right? Which has nothing to do with all settings around the battle itself. Sure, the higher the stakes the more important it becomes, but what i don`t get is what you mean by that. Because, even if the stakes are high, there still needs to be a battle system, regardless.

So pure and simple, what would be a good battling system? Because i`m in the dark here

Or are you referring to a bigger chance rate? Factoring in luck etc? Because if you are, please help me out on some formula`s. I`m looking at stats and formula`s , not simulation right now

[Callan S.]

What I'm saying is that the battle system could simply be a coin flip and be thrilling. If you were going to win $1000 on heads and lose $1 on tails, you'd probably be really excited about that coin flip, right? It doesn't need to be complex to be exciting. It's the stakes your playing for, the $1000 or whatever, that makes it exciting.

If you think a coin flips a bit drab and not evocative of a game world then you are talking simulation first and foremost. In terms of that it's not like there is some galactic standard on what is a good battling system and what is a bad battling system. What your aiming for is an aesthetic that is compelling to you - and then find other people who find it compelling as well. Don't try to please everyone in the world.

In terms of that, are there any battles in movies or books that you thought were awesome? Well if there were, you start looking at what happened in them. Then start assigning numbers to each thing that happened in them and shaping the numbers into something that echo's that awesome battle in the movie or book.

Other than that, there is no great gaming god that came down and wrote on a stone tablet what is a good battling system. Or not that I know of, anyway!

[kaos78414]

I like your formula. I've tried several different ones on paper, but none are implemented yet, as I'm really trying to perfect my GDD before I go into serious development.

In WoW, different attacks use different formulas. Taking this route can create some interesting strategy opportunities in turn-based combat for your PBBG, by having skills that work together, like a skill that stacks to increase the damage of another type of move.

Pokemon has a definite formula - looks like this:
Damage Formula = (((((((Level × 2 ÷ 5) + 2) × BasePower × [Sp]Atk ÷ 50) ÷ [Sp]Def) × Mod1) + 2) × CH × Mod2 × R ÷ 100) × STAB × Type1 × Type2 × Mod3
See http://www.smogon.com/dp/articles/damage_formula for an explanation of all the modifiers. For instance STAB, stands for Same-Type Attack Bonus - meaning when a Pokemon of the same type as the move he's using uses that move, it'll do 1.5 times normal damage. So STAB = 1.5, or 1 in all other cases. (that's why dual type pokemon are better sweepers than others, able to have two STAB moves, potentially doubling their type coverage)

It really all depends on your game. My suggestion is to start with what you have there, and either add other types of damage calculations later, or refine that one as you continue testing.

@Callan - I like what you're saying here. Games like Mobsters were wildly successful and their PvP was nothing but a very simple calculation, and was pretty much a gamble all the time. This is great for casual gamers. But like you said, if you want to inspire competition you've got to have some complex formulas in there to influence strategy. This way players will say to themselves - hmmm, this move works better in this circumstance, and this one works better in this circumstance.

Hey Xaleph, you were talking about being blinded and status affects like that. Here's an idea to inspire strategy: Have an item that when held will cause the player character to be inflicted with blindness, but also have a move that's attack power is 1.5x normal when blinded. (replace blinded with pretty much any other status effect)

[Xaleph]

@Kaos: Yeah, that`s actually quite cool!

But one thing is still a problem, i need the base modifiers to be expendable or null. Which either way sucks in the formula. However, i can work around it I guess.

I was thinking of some default armor sets, if you use some sort of special stone, it will be "attached" to your base armor, which basicly means that particular armor set has 20% more base defense and stuff. So this formula is going to be expanded a lot i suppose.

@Callan: Like i said before, i don`t know what you are trying to get at, i understand your posts, but not the point you are trying to make. If it was not clear, it`s going to be a simple MMO where you create your own character, play the game, do quests and above all: do PvP. PvP should not be about chance, it should be about strategy and skill. Obviously, there should be some randomization but not that much. it should be verify-ablely < dont know that word -> anyway, if players are 4 levels higher, then the odds of them winning should be greater, which is impossible if i were to do something like flip a coin.

However, i do understand this is a simulation. That i know, but then again, this is because i have no other idea as to how i can factor in skill at this moment. Yeah, wearing the right armor for the right time against the right opponent.

I was thinking of building an "arena" but it would take ages and it requires 2 people online at the same time, in the same instance, which means either flash, or long polling / push at a very high refresh rate.

Any comments on this? Because yeah, im open for whatever, but formula`s seem to be the best option for now.

[kaos78414]

As I said, formulas will inspire competition, which is what seems to be your goal. So I would go that route. As for the Arena, it's going to be hard to escape flash or long-polling unless you want to build your game around web sockets.

But all the complicated stuff aside, I'd like to hear more about your game. So it revolves around PvP... What's the setting? Why so competitive? Will there be a storyline driving the PvP ?

I like to hear other peoples ideas because it helps me come up with ideas for my own game.

[Callan S.]

PVP isn't about strategy and skill. It's about winning. I know, everyone told you for years PVP is about strategy and skill. But if you can beat the other guy with a single key press, do you then instead try working up some elaborate strategy of many moves to beat him? No, you do the single key press, because it's winning, not strategy, that PVP is about.

I'm saying this because I think you've switched into logical thinker mode (probably because that's how you think when you PVP) and have hit writers block when this is a creative thinker problem. It involves simply making things up because it's enjoyable to make things up - not making things up as if there is a solution to what formula to use. That's why I mentioned the books and movies before, because this is a creative problem, not a logic problem. Try to forget how people will whinge or bitch about certain things in PVP games and just make something. Go back to the roots of entertaining fictional battles. After you've made it, you could whittle it down to suit how people complain about this or that, if you must.

Or we can punt formulas around endlessly. I might be wrong, but I think that will just go on endlessly.

I was thinking of building an "arena" but it would take ages and it requires 2 people online at the same time, in the same instance, which means either flash, or long polling / push at a very high refresh rate.

I would suggest players have a series of settings for their character, like trying to keep distance, or to try and trip at certain times, whatever. The player toggles these. Then a second player can attack the first one when their offline, but because they set those toggles, they are atleast not just fighting that players stats, but some of their strategy as well.

[Jackolantern]

I usually stay away from very complex formulas in RPGs. I say this because there seems to be 2 different modes of thought when it comes to formulas:

1. Go as complex as possible so as to make them difficult for players to crack. They know more damage on their weapon does more damage, but aside from that, the specifics of the system are difficult to tell, and an experienced player simply has to get "a feel" for what does what.

2. Go as simple as possible so that players know exactly what they will get from each choice they make. This way even beginner players have some direction when it comes to advancing their character.

I personally prefer #2, and it seems to be catching on as the dominant way of thinking. WoW was very big on stat-to-bonus transparency, and even had tooltips to tell you what each stat point will give you and how it will effect your character's output. What results from these kinds of simple formula systems is that more players can get into player builds and the competitive side of the game. It also results, as I mentioned before, in beginner players seeing the inner-core of the game's PvP and PvE as being more accessible.

[Xaleph]

Every system get`s cracked some time in the near future, it`s inevitable, so what you are trying to say is: keep it simple, let them have it? That actually makes quite some sense.. I`m not into the whole MMORPG gaming scene ( never played WoW ) but i remember Lineage 2, which was very cool for that time being.

It was hard to get a grasp at what was going on. Yeah, slash away and you`ll do damage, but you had 32 classes, so it really was a pain to get to know classes and how they affected you, as a simple hack`n slash guy, right?

So to truly understand the mehanics there, you had to play different classes, get a "feel" for it, which you described. Anyway, i did like the game a lot, especially in the early stages. Once you gained enough levels, it was a grind fest, which was a huge turn down for me. Since my time is limited lol.

Anyway, that was over 6 years ago, so I can`t judge this properly. Only if PBBG`s count too!

Well, to summarize, you say less is more right? Easy formula`s make gameplay enjoyable for beginners? And what about the experienced players?