Clicking & "Is that all there is?" [slight rant]

[Callan S.]

I ran into a comment about my game, Fight Cycle, over here.

I tried you game out-

I really don't get it other than just pushing the button for each fight-

Is that all there is?

It's funny how people can register an apparent absence - 'that's all there is?' as if there is only a crumb and where is the cake?

But ask them to describe the cake, and they will enter into vague, handwavey terms like 'engaging combat' - like, as if 'engaging' is somehow an actual descriptor of physical, concrete elements?

Really, that's the issue. How vague they get - indeed, so vague, they really have nothing to say.

I've thought long and hard about what you could have which is more than a click and probability check.

And in the end, in trying to pursue that, I think what I found is that the person who says 'Is that all there is?', they have absolutely no idea of what sort of further game they want!

So when even they don't know what they want, somehow you are supposed to know their own brains/know what they want better than they do???

Once you get to this point, you realise, why do anything more complicated? What, I want to generate busy work for the player? Why bother when a click will do just as well? At best I can think of games that help improve your math ability, or memory ability (which Fight Cycle now has in it's Gym, which is a simple memory game). In this way they improve your own personal qualities, to an extent.

But what is combat in a game? What, you're supposed to somehow shove in a memory game into that? Combat is stupid - it's about hitting the other person harder than they hit you! Sure, in a video game you could set up some sort of reflex game along those lines. But it's bizarre - there seem to be many PBBG gamers out there who play text based games and know or atleast stay within the 'no reflex games' limits of text based browser games. So why does someone come up with 'Is that all there is?'? Does it look like an action video game?

It's like they look down on you, simply because they are blind to how much they are unaware.

[Jackolantern]

I feel your pain. It is pretty well documented that gamers often want contradicting things in games (like "an incredible challenge", but "not frustrating"), and that they can't often explain what makes a game fun or what they want in their games beyond just pointing to other games with mechanics they enjoyed. Not that we are geniuses, considering that dozens of books have been written with game dev authors trying to define the undefinable of what makes something "fun". It is like we don't even know what we want until we see it in action. Games are one of the few mediums like this, considering that theater and film critics and academics have laundry lists of what makes a "great movie/play", and Hollywood has basically condensed film making down into a formula to create mass appeal. There are no formulas for games. And that means gamers and developers are both going to struggle to define an ideal.

In the end, it is best to shrug off the non-constructive haters. Every product will always have random haters, and since their intentions are not to give feedback to help turn the product into a form they will enjoy, it is best not to give them your attention. Some of them just enjoy being "that guy" (you know what I mean lol).

Just know that I really like it!

[Callan S.]

Thanks for saying that, Jack!

As I said to him, you have to want to win as well. If you have no interest in winning a 14 fight cycle (or atleast an interest in winning individual fights), it's a bit like joining a running race when you have no interest in winning the race - all a running race is is a big circle and alot of pointless running - surely a very boring thing. IF you have no interest in winning!

Note: There are 'games' in which the activity is not about winning. Minecraft is probably a prime example (though I think they added a dragon recently). The Day Z mod is probably another. But it's not as if, because games like these have come out, every other game has to appeal to the 'not interested in winning' gamer.

[Sharlenwar]

I enjoy Minecraft very thoroughly. I have even rented a server host for our Minecraft world, as it has grown to that point for our small group of people. Minecraft reminds me of the old Ultima Online days, where you had an open world and could do what you pleased. I for one play the game on Hard, as it is the only way to play.

As for your game, remember, you aren't there to create a game that appeals to the masses. Sure, it would be great if people played your game and enjoyed it, even help make it popular. Why did you create Fight Cycle? Did you create it for something different, or to appeal to the masses? I personally enjoy your game, I log on at work here, periodically to make sure I need to heal. I even play the Gym, as I find that interesting. I'm actually looking forward to any changes/additions you might have with your game. There just needs to be more people to play it.

Take criticism like salt, a bit at a time and only if it helps. Useless ones aren't even worth worrying about. I have a Minecraft server which offers a unique gameplay experience through the usage of plugins and what not, some people like it, some hate it, some are on the fence. I build my server to play the game in the way that I would experience it. Others just get the chance to come along for the ride and try it out as well.

Not sure where I was going with this, but rest assured, I know I'll tell everyone to at least give your game a shot for the full Fight Cycle.

[OldRod]

Every game boils down to clicking when you get right down to it. It's what you do with those clicks and how you make the player want to click that matters.

Always remember, you will never please everybody. No matter how great your game is, no matter how many units you sell, there will always be people who say it sucks. Just like no matter how bad a game is, there is always someone who likes it. Quick example from my own personal gaming life. I have never understood the big deal about Morrowind. Everyone raves about it - I just can't get into it. On the other hand, I played Horizons for years (now called Istaria). There were times when I was the only person on the server playing and even at peak times, there were maybe 100 people playing. I loved that game, even though the majority opinion was that it was horrible.

I find it best to work on projects and games that you find fun to play. If you like the game, others will too, and that's who you design the game for. Ignore the random haters

[Nihilant]

I find it best to work on projects and games that you find fun to play. If you like the game, others will too, and that's who you design the game for. Ignore the random haters

Couldn't agree more! And everyone else said the things I agree with, so just another same thing to say: can't please everyone, just look for their arguments. Dissatisfied player can also give good arguments (although this particular one in your case looks like something different xD), just don't let them derail you from your vision of the gameplay.

[Jackolantern]

Dissatisfied player can also give good arguments (although this particular one in your case looks like something different xD), just don't let them derail you from your vision of the gameplay.

Most definitely. One of the worst traps to fall into is making changes to your game from one person's reaction. If you do, you will always be pulling out the pipes and starting over, since, as has been said, you can't please everyone

[Callan S.]

Thanks, all! Thanks for the encouragement!

Most definitely. One of the worst traps to fall into is making changes to your game from one person's reaction.

That's the thing though - really there isn't any reaction in terms of actual description of what is supposed to be missing.

Even if there was, I would consider if what they think is missing is what fits the game I'm building up on. But there's no description of what's apparently missing at all. Just negativity as if they know, when they don't - yet they don't know that they don't know.

I think an even worse trap to fall into is one where you listen to someone who doesn't know what they want, but they act like they do.

I mean, even right now I'm thinking about a skill boost system where every half hour you can give up healing to gain a certain amount of skill each hour, to give a varied approach to skill gain. I do like to work out variations on the base system that fight cycle works from - but you need to know a direction to work out a variation on click advancement.

[Jackolantern]

That's the thing though - really there isn't any reaction in terms of actual description of what is supposed to be missing.

Then you just ignore those people

I think an even worse trap to fall into is one where you listen to someone who doesn't know what they want, but they act like they do.

I think the best bet is to not change the game at all based on what one person says, unless them saying it is a eureka moment, where you realize immediately it was something you always should have had. The only time i would tweak a game based on what others have said is if you have a consensus among a substantial amount of people that something is wrong or could be better. "Substantial" is going to depend on the game. For a major studio making a AAA game, I would think that is a large and vocal crowd on the internet (such as the heat Bioware got for the Mass Effect 3 ending which prompted them to release a new ending through DLC), and for an indie game, I would say it would be a message board, social networking page or something similar with a group of people who have played it.

[Callan S.]

I think why I tried to engage them is discerning whether the person actually has a problem that ~95% of the population would have, or whether they are confusing their own tastes in gameplay as being the whole world.

In the end the person was saying they just wanted choices/numbers which really had no effect, because "it's fun". Even then, even if most of the population likes false choices - well, it's not something I want to produce in a game. People might like certain drugs - doesn't mean I want to manufacture them for them, so to speak.

The annoying thing is latter I thought of a mechanic I've used in another game where you get a message and latter you make a choice based on that (ie, a small memory game).

But the thing is, they don't even seem to enjoy random rolls. As I said over there, I see gamers enjoy rolling d20's - I assume these guys like rolling dice. It's like watching them wolf down steaks, but then act like vegetarians when a game is primarily about dice rolling/steak, so to speak. It makes me wonder if they are just in denial about what they enjoy.