Pen and Paper RPGs

[hallsofvallhalla]

yeah but doesn't it make more sense to sell the PHB at $20 instead of $40 to draw more people in? If your business is based on selling books and the books only get sold if people play the game should they not release the have to have to get started books at a much lower price? It is hard to get new player to play when they have to fork out so much money to get started.

[Jackolantern]

I have no problem with WotC trying to sell books. They bought D&D to make money. I do however have a problem with them wrecking the game to do so. While TSR D&D did make mention of miniatures, they were not tied into the game. Now, new players are told in the first chapter of the PHB that they must buy WotC D&D miniatures to play the game. Spell rules, as well as others, are designed to reinforce this as well. What happened to imagination? I think WotC got a case of Games Workshop envy watching Warhammer players spend and spend.

[Callan S.]

Often times with imagination use I think 'what happened to rules?'. It, as in how things turn out, just ends up someones whim (typically the GMs). I like imagination, but I think it should, via options given in the rules, only influence the numbers - else when it actually determines the outcome of conflicts, it's just become whim and a show put on rather than a game. Not that shows are bad, it's just when I want to play a game, I want a game, not watch a show. There are plenty of showman who call upon audience participation - doesn't mean the audience are playing a game.

I've seen people play warhammer wargames with just paper tokens - you can do the same with 3/4E. Granted in warhammer there's peer pressure to get the figures, so I grant those companies are playing off that in either case. But they are nice figures - I have some simply to enjoy looking at (and playing with like toys...)

And it maybe they are watching GW, as they have this campaign thing they are getting people to run in stores all over the place, where the GM's all run the same module. Every time I go past a GW shop, they seem to have some kids in there excited about the stuff.

[hallsofvallhalla]

Hence my game Universal Miniatures I am making. You can use anything for figures. The rules build around what you use.

[Bane_Star]

yeah but doesn't it make more sense to sell the PHB at $20 instead of $40 to draw more people in? If your business is based on selling books and the books only get sold if people play the game should they not release the have to have to get started books at a much lower price? It is hard to get new player to play when they have to fork out so much money to get started.

in a simple economy yes, but modern marketing and laws of supply and demand, do not make for the simple : make it cheaper and you'll make more sales..

I'm not going to lecture you on Marketing, but the simple system is that making a product cheaper reduces your profits even after increased sales numbers.. more stacking, more shelves more customer contact, more customer complaints department costs, more damaged goods, more more more.. finding the right balance is hard for most companies..

Yes I agree that miniatures should be optional, I use a $4,000 1.5m square starboard for my gaming.. but I game in the office, I used to use hundreds of hand painted miniatures (I am an old warhammer fan, still have my golden daemon on the shelf) so thats cool too, but I've also gamed, without sheets, dice or rules while in a cafe in an airport, and it comes down to player trust, not whim.

[Callan S.]

but I've also gamed, without sheets, dice or rules while in a cafe in an airport, and it comes down to player trust, not whim.

I'm not so sure what would be so bad if it did come down to whim? Why say it isn't?

For example, if I say "I push the vase off the balcony" and you respond "It falls and shatters on the concrete below", you could just as easily say "It hits the concrete and bounces back up to the balcony" - nothing controls your mouth as it says words. It's just whim. Your not cheating, it's imagination - you imagine how you want to, not by some sort of rules that rigidly force your mind to imagine a certain way. It's just whim. Granted there are boring ways of imagining, but that isn't cheating, just boring (and even whether it's boring is subjective).

[Bane_Star]

But if you tell your players it bounces back up to the balcony again,. your players are going to question the nature of the vase, its materials, and the concrete below, if your argument is not solid enough, your players will not trust your judgement again in all future results and therefore.. whim.

Physics rules which are ambiguous to players are usually the problem in games, your players have to trust that you know your stuff and that their character doesn't understand, or the players will feel that your breaking the rules and playing on your own whim, which feels like railroading or cotton-balling, and most players hate that.

[Callan S.]

Well this is exactly why I'm into developing written rules, because it's always whim. I don't trust peoples imaginations - I trust the written rules (well, when were all actually following them). Oh, in play I might make a plan based on pushing the vase and it breaking, but not because I trust the GM, but because statistically I think most peoples imaginations 'go that way' so to speak. Or I know the GM personally and think I can second guess how he imagines.

Possibly alot of table top roleplayers try to use the described fiction as an actual ruleset in itself (and probably the main bulk of the ruleset). I don't think it works out - perhaps alot of the time perhaps everyones imaginations 'go that way' in the same way. But other times...

If the players feel that your playing on your own whim, then they are becoming aware of the truth that has been the case all along.

Alot of newer table top games have started using written rules to introduce points players can spend to influence the unfolding story/avoid (to various extents) the railroading you talk about.

[Jackolantern]

Well this is exactly why I'm into developing written rules, because it's always whim. I don't trust peoples imaginations - I trust the written rules (well, when were all actually following them). Oh, in play I might make a plan based on pushing the vase and it breaking, but not because I trust the GM, but because statistically I think most peoples imaginations 'go that way' so to speak. Or I know the GM personally and think I can second guess how he imagines.

Possibly alot of table top roleplayers try to use the described fiction as an actual ruleset in itself (and probably the main bulk of the ruleset). I don't think it works out - perhaps alot of the time perhaps everyones imaginations 'go that way' in the same way. But other times...

If the players feel that your playing on your own whim, then they are becoming aware of the truth that has been the case all along.

Alot of newer table top games have started using written rules to introduce points players can spend to influence the unfolding story/avoid (to various extents) the railroading you talk about.

I like fewer rules, because to me, it is about the experience, and not about "winning". I don't want to get bogged down in endless dice rolls or checking rule tables. But then, all of the GMs I played with typically erred on the side of the player, and worked on the idea of "assumed actions" (i.e. it was assumed you could climb a ladder, break a vase, etc.) so no rolls were needed for that. There was never an issue where I had to question whether or not I trusted the GM.

[hallsofvallhalla]

yep have to agree there.