Pen and Paper RPGs

[Jackolantern]

It really does feel like TSR just wanted their customers to play and have fun while making enough money to stay profitable. But it feels to me like WotC wants to force their customers to cough up as much cash as possible with no regard. TSR made the 2nd Edition to fix several glaring holes in the 1st edition of AD&D. They then stayed with the 2nd Edition until their purchase by WotC, which was about 10 years. Now WotC releases a new version every year or two like it is a computer game (3.5?! C'mon now!). The 4th Edition doesn't even include spells like 2nd Edition Player's Handbook did. You have to buy each class manual to get them, or buy the card packs (which is about $130 to get them all)!

Sorry about all the WotC D&D venting lol. Even though I haven't played in years, I had a lot of fun when I did. It just annoys me that new players are getting into D&D with a rule-heavy miniatures game designed to make them poorer, rather than the creative game of imagination that I played, and that Gygax created.

[hallsofvallhalla]

i agree 100%

[KunoNoOni]

This page gives a pretty good introduction on pen'n'paper role-playing games and how they are played. Just ignore the parts where it talks about "miniatures". Ever since the Magic: The Gathering people (Wizards of the Coast) bought Dungeons and Dragons from TSR, they have tried to make it a marketing juggernaut, telling players they have to buy hundreds or thousands of dollars worth of miniatures, props and books to play. All you really need is the player's handbook (preferably prior to version 3) some dice, and the DM (the person who is telling and controlling the story) would probably want to have the DM handbook (again, preferably a TSR product, edition 2). Miniatures and version 3+ are only required for those with no imagination, or "power gamers" who love playing with hundreds of number grinding rules.

I have to agree with you here. While I am ok with some of the changes they make, I still perfer 2nd edition. I haven't played 4th edition but I heard they dumbed down the rules alot...

-KunoNoOni

[Jackolantern]

I flipped through a 4th edition handbook the other day, and they did seem to do a fair bit to fix it. It feels a bit less like a computer game played on a tabletop than 3rd edition did. Don't get me wrong, though, the spirit and imagination D&D had in 2nd edition is still not there, and it is still a miniatures and power rules game, but maybe if they keep going this direction it will be fixed by 8th edition

[MAruz]

I flipped through a 4th edition handbook the other day, and they did seem to do a fair bit to fix it. It feels a bit less like a computer game played on a tabletop than 3rd edition did. Don't get me wrong, though, the spirit and imagination D&D had in 2nd edition is still not there, and it is still a miniatures and power rules game, but maybe if they keep going this direction it will be fixed by 8th edition

I felt the opposite, that 4th ed was more like a computer game. That being on how you "played" the character more than how you created it. To me 4th ed simply felt like playing an mmo in PnP format.

[Jackolantern]

I flipped through a 4th edition handbook the other day, and they did seem to do a fair bit to fix it. It feels a bit less like a computer game played on a tabletop than 3rd edition did. Don't get me wrong, though, the spirit and imagination D&D had in 2nd edition is still not there, and it is still a miniatures and power rules game, but maybe if they keep going this direction it will be fixed by 8th edition

I felt the opposite, that 4th ed was more like a computer game. That being on how you "played" the character more than how you created it. To me 4th ed simply felt like playing an mmo in PnP format.

When I say i flipped through it, I definitely do mean I scanned it, so you may very well be right. I just noticed that it seemed like there was more lore pages than tables of rules, figures, charts, etc. than in 3rd edition. Maybe they just used those forms of illustration less.

[Callan S.]

Weird, I remember people saying TSR were money grubbing. Gygax certainly shoved Arneston out.

Perhaps if some other company buys the license from wizards, then wizards will become remembered fondly... >:)

[Jackolantern]

Not in my book! I never had anything but the utmost respect for TSR. Heck, when then internet came around, they gave away enough material on their website to play without buying anything from them. Of course, they were on the verge of bankruptcy when WotC bought them out, so go figure...

[hallsofvallhalla]

yes, WOTC are the money grubbers. Gygax was only the VP most of the days at TSR. Not full owner.

TSR did make some stupid decisions centered around money but they were a large Inc. Had to keep the doors open I suppose.

[Bane_Star]

I always felt that TSR were too commercial, but now.. WotC? makes TSR look like a hippy convention.

But now that I'm in corporate culture, I do ask myself.. how else WOULD you run a Gaming company..

You bring out a Book, which makes you some profit, but unless you can continue to sell as many books per year,.. your doomed.
DMG, PHB, MM, thats 3 years.. but the DMG and MM are more for the DM than the players, and most players don't buy the PHB each..
Sure, some groups I knew, each player bought their own class book, but the price was much lower, so thats likely to be in the same genre as 1 book per player group.. so now we're up to 4 years profitable company .. maybe..

After that? I just can;t see a decent business model to sustain itself.. unless you add more things players need, like Miniatures, quest publications, dice, and constant promotion.