Cause and effect

[Jackolantern]

I was reading a bit in the Skyrim thread in Off-Topic (I have never played and probably never will, so I didn't have much to add) where people were talking about "cause and effect". It made me think about cause and effect in games, and of course the horrible over-promising with Fable's cause and effect. I started to think about how you could have some real cause and effect in a game, and it made me think of a small game/digital toy idea.

Say you have a small town or city full of tons of people (I am thinking cartoony overhead perspective). What if instead of focusing on story, or even gameplay, the entire development was focused on giving every single one of these people their own personality, routine and ways they react (perhaps based on hidden stats), as well as adding services to keep the world running (firemen, police, government, etc). Then you give the "overlord" (the player) a limited number of ways to affect the world. You could strike someone dead, you could steal things, abduct a city member, give piles of money to one of them. And then the entire thing is seeing how this new stimuli to the world affects things.

It really isn't a proper game, but more like a digital toy. I am just not sure it would be worth all the of the effort to put into it.

[Xaos]

I was reading a bit in the Skyrim thread in Off-Topic (I have never played and probably never will, so I didn't have much to add) where people were talking about "cause and effect". It made me think about cause and effect in games, and of course the horrible over-promising with Fable's cause and effect. I started to think about how you could have some real cause and effect in a game, and it made me think of a small game/digital toy idea.

Say you have a small town or city full of tons of people (I am thinking cartoony overhead perspective). What if instead of focusing on story, or even gameplay, the entire development was focused on giving every single one of these people their own personality, routine and ways they react (perhaps based on hidden stats), as well as adding services to keep the world running (firemen, police, government, etc). Then you give the "overlord" (the player) a limited number of ways to affect the world. You could strike someone dead, you could steal things, abduct a city member, give piles of money to one of them. And then the entire thing is seeing how this new stimuli to the world affects things.

It really isn't a proper game, but more like a digital toy. I am just not sure it would be worth all the of the effort to put into it.

Someone should really focus on creating stuff like this as an Engine. IE Munecraft is an engine, imo. bht it still is and can be played with. Ditto with a huge cause and effect thing. then eventually you can create the game around it or shoot, sell it and allow others to do so. while it may take years to create a game with tgis engine if you're making it in house, having it already made would cut the time to a normal game.

[vitinho444]

I like the idea, a few years (probably months?) ago i tried to create a Zero Player Game, similar to what you are saying. I always loved simulators, and this would be a very nice experience.

The problem i see in creating one, is that you need to code everything.. Every action, every reaction, every cause and every effect, it needs to be coded.. I know there are already things that "learn behavior" and i would love to learn more about random generation.

Jacko, i can't offer much.. But if you want to make something, and don't mind a companion (both learning and helping) i would try to help you doing that

[hallsofvallhalla]

It is crazy you talk about this as I had a project written in Javascript and was hosted on a Raspberry pi that was exactly what you are talking about. Small square 5px X 5px colored blocks represented people that lived on a canvas. They basically walked around and made decisions based on what was happening. I had a ugly gui where you could punish or reward them, change the weather, feed them, ect.. I was working on behaviors that would change it all, power, hunger, love, ect..

I never got to get too far though as I sold the raspberry pi board and didn't realize the backup was corrupt. Lost all the code and was so irritated I tried to forget about it. One day I may try to rebuild it. It was getting fun. You felt like a god over these little blocks and it was fun to leave them for a few hours and come back to see what they were doing. At one point they were all bunched up in a corner, I moved the mouse and they all spread out like they were hiding something. Now they were no where near that smart but it was funny to see it happen. It was most likely a bug in the code but i never trusted them after that

[Callan S.]

Dwarf fortress?

[Jackolantern]

Dwarf fortress?

I have heard the name but never knew what it is. I will take a look. You are saying it is similar to this?

EDIT: It seems a bit like it in the way the world is so fleshed out, but it is also a bit more interactive than I was thinking.

I guess the closest I can think of would be if you took the cause and effect in perhaps Skyrim and multiplied it several times (since that is the entire focus of the game) and mixed in the interaction model with the mobile app Pocket God, that is kind of what I am thinking. It would probably be a good fit for a mobile title, as it would be more of a digital toy than a full-on game.

[vitinho444]

It is crazy you talk about this as I had a project written in Javascript and was hosted on a Raspberry pi that was exactly what you are talking about. Small square 5px X 5px colored blocks represented people that lived on a canvas. They basically walked around and made decisions based on what was happening. I had a ugly gui where you could punish or reward them, change the weather, feed them, ect.. I was working on behaviors that would change it all, power, hunger, love, ect..

I never got to get too far though as I sold the raspberry pi board and didn't realize the backup was corrupt. Lost all the code and was so irritated I tried to forget about it. One day I may try to rebuild it. It was getting fun. You felt like a god over these little blocks and it was fun to leave them for a few hours and come back to see what they were doing. At one point they were all bunched up in a corner, I moved the mouse and they all spread out like they were hiding something. Now they were no where near that smart but it was funny to see it happen. It was most likely a bug in the code but i never trusted them after that

In my zero player game i tried to add that exact same logic for "people" display, i failed xD

Getting corrupted backups is so uncool, a guy spends time making the backup and then poof, "you wasted your time for nothing"

[hallsofvallhalla]

Wow never heard of Dwarf Fortress but what a neat game.

[Callan S.]

Oh My Zeus! You guys had never heard of dwarf fortress before? I'm frankly amazed - I thought it was generally a side order to go along with the minecraftieness talk. The various story accounts of play are generally strangely compelling.

Awful UI though, IMO.

[vitinho444]

Oh My Zeus! You guys had never heard of dwarf fortress before? I'm frankly amazed - I thought it was generally a side order to go along with the minecraftieness talk. The various story accounts of play are generally strangely compelling.

Awful UI though, IMO.

I checked out yesterday, but im not sure if i didn't like it for the UI or for the genre + gameplay. (or even both)

But what i appreciate and enjoy very much, is the random story and actions and simulation inside the game. I love that.