Using Fair and "able" Values in Games

[vitinho444]

In my very very very free time, I'm sort of doing a remake of one of my favourite browser based games: Ogame.

About space there are few, indies that i know there are none so why don't start?

Now and not only for this game, i face a problem (I come to the feeling that i use the word 'problem' too much in my conversations.. feels negative doesn't it?) that some of us, if not everyone might feel while creating a game:
THE CREATION OF FAIR VALUES

By fair values, i mean the resource usage (i.e metal) in the upgrade or build of any factory / mine / anything in the game.

How can i be sure the value is not both too easy and too hard to achieve?... What logic do you guys use for your games.. I'm also making a FPS and I'm afraid to make too Overpowered or Lesspowered weapons in the hands of the players.

What you guys think?

[Callan S.]

I'd say, whether it's PVP or PVE, it's that when you loose you can think of something you could have done or countered with. Some way that if you had done things differently you could have won or atleast had a better shot at winning. Ideally these are fairly obvious in hindsight after loosing the game - it's a bad situation when there is something the player could have done, but they haven't been given the faintest clue as to what it is, so the situation seemed unwinable and thus unfair.

[Jackolantern]

I think too many devs of these types of games drive themselves crazy wanting everything to be completely equal. It won't be, so don't waste the time to try. Some things should be more powerful, and it even adds an additional dimension to the game, as it gives players something to talk about, to read up on, and to experiment with. To help keep everyone from gravitating to all the same things, make sure you have some kind of specializations for your game. For example, mining ships will have a set of "best" items, fighters will have a set of best items, cargo ships will have a best set, etc. But make the best hard to get. The only important thing is balancing the best. Everything of lower power doesn't matter as much. Maybe one blaster augmentation is overpowered for its level/skill-level. So what? It will become the item everyone will get while they try to get the "best", which is very hard, but the "best" (which is incredibly hard to get) can beat the overpowered blaster (overpowered for its level, easy to get, but no match to the "best"), so it balances itself out.

As far as FPS, again, I would say not to worry about it as much. You really only have to be careful in single-player through lot of testing to make sure you aren't giving your players so much that they can plow straight through the game. In multiplayer, I have seen most modern FPS games basically throw balance out the window in multiplayer. Players level-up through playing, so right there balance is gone. And some weapons are vastly more powerful than others, but a lot of them are just pick-ups that anyone in the match can grab. Didn't get it this time and got blown away? Maybe you will get it next time and blow them away. Not much of a problem there.

[vitinho444]

I'd say, whether it's PVP or PVE, it's that when you loose you can think of something you could have done or countered with. Some way that if you had done things differently you could have won or atleast had a better shot at winning. Ideally these are fairly obvious in hindsight after loosing the game - it's a bad situation when there is something the player could have done, but they haven't been given the faintest clue as to what it is, so the situation seemed unwinable and thus unfair.

understood.

I think too many devs of these types of games drive themselves crazy wanting everything to be completely equal. It won't be, so don't waste the time to try. Some things should be more powerful, and it even adds an additional dimension to the game, as it gives players something to talk about, to read up on, and to experiment with. To help keep everyone from gravitating to all the same things, make sure you have some kind of specializations for your game. For example, mining ships will have a set of "best" items, fighters will have a set of best items, cargo ships will have a best set, etc. But make the best hard to get. The only important thing is balancing the best. Everything of lower power doesn't matter as much. Maybe one blaster augmentation is overpowered for its level/skill-level. So what? It will become the item everyone will get while they try to get the "best", which is very hard, but the "best" (which is incredibly hard to get) can beat the overpowered blaster (overpowered for its level, easy to get, but no match to the "best"), so it balances itself out.

As far as FPS, again, I would say not to worry about it as much. You really only have to be careful in single-player through lot of testing to make sure you aren't giving your players so much that they can plow straight through the game. In multiplayer, I have seen most modern FPS games basically throw balance out the window in multiplayer. Players level-up through playing, so right there balance is gone. And some weapons are vastly more powerful than others, but a lot of them are just pick-ups that anyone in the match can grab. Didn't get it this time and got blown away? Maybe you will get it next time and blow them away. Not much of a problem there.

Hum.. well you're right, it won't be 100% equal.. So is it ok to throw out some values (not random ofc) at the beginning and then do some tweaking when it's done?

[Jackolantern]

So is it ok to throw out some values (not random ofc) at the beginning and then do some tweaking when it's done?

I would say so. You could even write a program to make all the stats, and then all you have to do is eyeball them and edit them.

[Callan S.]

I would suggest trying to figure the feeling you think numbers will give, and figure what feeling you want the game to give. Then playtest it and see if it matches up with the feel you were aiming for.

A one copper healing potion gives a feeling of commoness, for example. While a thousand gold healing potion (same strength as before) suddenly becomes rarified and more special.

But don't expect to have a perfect idea of what numbers should be what from the get go. You kind of have to feel your way through and playtest, playtest, playtest!

[vitinho444]

So is it ok to throw out some values (not random ofc) at the beginning and then do some tweaking when it's done?

I would say so. You could even write a program to make all the stats, and then all you have to do is eyeball them and edit them.

Yeah im not that good with random number generation

I would suggest trying to figure the feeling you think numbers will give, and figure what feeling you want the game to give. Then playtest it and see if it matches up with the feel you were aiming for.

A one copper healing potion gives a feeling of commoness, for example. While a thousand gold healing potion (same strength as before) suddenly becomes rarified and more special.

But don't expect to have a perfect idea of what numbers should be what from the get go. You kind of have to feel your way through and playtest, playtest, playtest!

Yeah you're right, what I always did and probably will continue, is to see as it were in real life.
Example, one of the resources is IRON. (how original xD) To set a base value of upgrade a Hangar i.e, i see as if i was building an hangar (or upgrading) in real life, so probably lots of IRON.

The problem with playtest, is that i can't find time.. I'm very busy making the game, but i lack playtesting because no one likes to play a ALPHA game.. unless others do ofc, would you play the alpha of a multiplayer game alone? Ofc not.
And other thing with playtest is that i try to create the values and the game on the longer term. So players dont get too tired of it in a week, so playtesting that is also hard.