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[hallsofvallhalla]

So I got into some discussions with some people at Palladium, names shall not be mentioned. (Makers of Rifts, Ninjas and Super spies, Chaos Earth, Palladium fantasy, and other Pen and paper RPGs). We were discussing a Updated version of a mud. Taking the fun parts like commands and massive worlds and making them better then taking the not so fun parts, lack of graphical representations, like maps and things and putting them in the game.

The world of Palladium is huge and their fan base is large and could boost the game. There is a possibility if the game was good that it could be a approved for use. There is also the possibility of them turning it down and having to scrap it.

I am questioning if I should try to use the Palladium world or build my own. They both have bonuses and drawbacks. Would a web based HTML5 Mud call any attention? I am thinking done right it could be popular, adding in the right balance of typing commands and having a small set of graphics.

Just curious on thoughts as I want to rebuild my Mud engine for FS with Impact and use Node for the server.

[Cayle]

Two things. Firstly, I’d avoid the Palladium IP. I’d avoid any IP in general, but with theirs, you are accepting restrictions and headaches for a very niche IP.

Next, text MUDs have something going for the concept, but perhaps not strictly as traditional, console text screens. Certain other UI patterns have hundreds of millions used to what is essentially text only information and a Geospatial coordinate system can stand in for a nodal one.

[Jackolantern]

I would only get involved with the Palladium IP if all of the following were true:

1. If they did not approve, that you could be permitted to remove any of their specific properties, spin your own world into it, and still release it as your own product (it is my understanding that this is usually not the case when working with an IP, but it can be possible).

2. If the IP terms are very relaxed. If they want 50% ownership or something like that, I would not go for it. Like Cayle mentioned, I don't know how much attention the IP alone would fetch, but then if it did get popular on the game's own merit, well, I don't think I need to finish the sentence.

3. If the content creation process works on a relaxed process as well. On one side of the spectrum, they just ensure you are familiar with the Palladium material and then give the final product some tweaking input, and on the other they view you as just the programmer and all design must be done by one of their in-house people (every pen'n'paper RPG company is filled to the brim with game designers who are always looking for something more to write/do).

I still think a MUD can work, provided, as you mention, it gives lots of visual feedback. One of the downfalls of MUDs vs. graphical MMOs in the 90's was that new players to MUDs were often very confused. Not just about what to do, but about how to do it. This limited their audiences heavily to those who were willing to spend tens of hours bumbling around with no idea what they were doing, and the easy-entry MMOs simply won out. I would not have thought text-based games could make it or even be (gasp) popular 7 years ago, but now PBBGs are really some of the most popular games out there, and they are mostly text. So I definitely think a MUD alone could work. But I don't know about the Palladium tie-in.

[Callan S.]

1. If they did not approve, that you could be permitted to remove any of their specific properties, spin your own world into it, and still release it as your own product (it is my understanding that this is usually not the case when working with an IP, but it can be possible).

Not so much permitted, but that game mechanics can't be copyrighted and if you replace all palladium IP (though they like to claim they have copyrighted words like 'ley line', cause they totally invented that word!) with your own, that is legally legit.

If they can't understand that and get all pent up and insistant the whole project would have to be canned, well they don't have a legal leg to stand on but perhaps avoid the project simply because their attitude is nasty, unpleasant and in accordance with a magical fantasy law they've made up in their heads.

I say this as having bought alot of rifts books and followed palladium a long time. They can get quite rabid, ever since the nightspawn lawsuit.

[Jackolantern]

Not having a legal leg to stand on doesn't mean much these days. If for some reason they didn't want the project to see light, they could still bleed you dry in court. The issue that could get it seen in court is that it is a directly derivative work, and they have proof (the version you sent them when it was 100% based on their work lol). Data East spent hundreds of thousands of dollars battling Capcom's copyright infringement case over Fighter's History vs. Street Fighter II back in the 90's, even though Fighter's History contained no copyrighted names, places, events, etc. from Street Fighter II. Again, I doubt they could win, but it isn't winning that is at stake. It is bleeding you dry so you finally give in. Many cases get the desired outcome without ever getting a decision in court, and many without even settling, just due to the fast bleed-out of the smaller company. This is why many professional studios will immediately dump a licensed game if the IP holder backs out, even though it may just take a month or two to re-tool it as a unique IP, even after the massive amount of man-years that went into it. Its just not worth it to duke it out with the movie publishers.

[Callan S.]

Well, I already advocated for not entering the project to begin if they don't get its okay to use the rules with a different IP. IF a bleed out method is possible, anyone who's rabid and vicious enough to use such a method aught not be worked with as well, IMO. Reall if such a bleed out option is available in the courts, it's an abomination within the justice system - just going back to primordial days where you'd have two champions hack each other to death to sort something out. Or atleast anyone who thinks the justice system is just spiffy aught to have their faith shaken by such a thing existing. And that's the justice system that surrounds us all with armed gunmen (hey, it's an accurate, if not as flattering name for a police officer).

[Jackolantern]

Sadly, it is always an option, and is being used daily in courts. Some large company has lawyers on payroll. They will happily use them to give them something to do. You, however, must pay lawyers by the hour out of your own pocket. They can simply drag everything out as long as possible until you make a deal out of preserving your bank account.

However, I guess this has gone pretty far off the rails here. Hopefully some small-ish pen'n'paper RPG company would not do such a thing, but it is important to understand that sometimes when you make an initial deal over an IP, you can't always go back while preserving all of your work. Its just a risk in doing those kinds of deals.

[hallsofvallhalla]

Thanks for all the feed back and I one of my reasons was to build it for Rifts and not for myself. In other words sticking to their rule set and demands was a point behind this. A Rifts MUD would fun especially a Palladium sponsored one.

I agree that dealing with another's IP would be tedious and not worth it in the end.

[Callan S.]

As I recall there is or was a rifts mud out there. I think somehow they got permission by some ways unknown to everyone else. I'm not sure if it's still being run - the guy running it got tired of doing so, the person he handed over to stuffed up, then I think he took over again.

It was rather odd in a way - I think there were players just beating up CS squads in the streets, cause you'd walk around and find CS wearponry just lying on the groud here and there.

[hallsofvallhalla]

haha, I don't think he ever got permission but Palladium just never said anything.